[20:00] == p2pu-dajbelshaw [519ee407@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.158.228.7] has joined #p2pu-235-open-badge
[20:00] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Jacky and Kevin
[20:00] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Hi Doug and Jacky
[20:01] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Thought I'd pop in for a while to see what Open Badge is all about
[20:01] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Kevin, Jacky was here last week - thanks for joining!
[20:01] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Jacky's involved with http://collegeopentextbooks.org
[20:02] <@p2pu-Jacky> Nice to meet you Kevin.
[20:03] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So this week we need to start thinking about a structure for the remaining 5 weeks. I've got an idea of what I'd like to focus in on for the next couple, but have you two any burning desires? :-)
[20:03] <p2pu-kvnmcl> And you Jacky, just having a look at collegeopentextbooks now
[20:03] <@p2pu-Jacky> It would be good to have a bit of a structure.
[20:03] <p2pu-kvnmcl> No burning desires Doug, quite happy to let you start off
[20:04] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Well I don't want to get too hung up on the technical side
[20:04] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So I'm interested in collaboratively writing some use cases
[20:04] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Kevin, I think this might float your boat as well, given what we discussed briefly on Twitter?
[20:05] <@p2pu-Jacky> Use cases are GREAT -- They pull the technical people back into the real world :-)
[20:05] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I liked the 'Learner stories' at http://wiki.mozilla.org/Badges but they're very... American.
[20:05] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Context is key, methinks. :-)
[20:05] <@p2pu-Jacky> Agreed on both counts there...
[20:05] <p2pu-kvnmcl> My idea is only that at the moment, usage to come 'hopefully' this coming term in September :-)
[20:06] <@p2pu-Jacky> All 3 counts
[20:06] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Kevin: Great, that's what this semester of learning is all about - thinking things through!
[20:07] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So perhaps Week 3 could be focused upon generating additional 'Learner stories' in, say, no more than 500 words?
[20:07] <@p2pu-Jacky> Sounds good. Any thoughts on where to put them? 500 words is a perfect length for a blog post. Should we create an open badge blog?
[20:08] <p2pu-kvnmcl> @Doug, good idea. I could write my own learner story for a start!
[20:08] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'd prefer it if it were distributed on people's own blogs but aggregated at P2PU (a bit like #purposed - Kevin knows what I mean)
[20:08] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky: Backstory: http://purposed.org.uk/campaigns/500-words/
[20:09] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Perfect way to do it, post on your own blog and aggregate here
[20:09] <@p2pu-Jacky> Also, we could invite people from outside the class and from around the world to dream up use cases -- Abel Caine in France, all the open people in Canada and NZ etc.
[20:09] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Yep, sounds great!
[20:10] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I think rooting it in our own contexts and realities helps think through some of the issues
[20:10] <@p2pu-Jacky> and of course Africa -- The open work there is fantastic
[20:10] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> +1
[20:10] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So if we focus on 500 words in Week 3, what would be the next logical step for Week 4? (or should we cross that bridge when we come to it? :-)
[20:11] <@p2pu-Jacky> One of the projects I am working on is an open textbook for project management certification. The 57 members are from all round the world.
[20:11] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Do you think there's some potential contributors there?
[20:12] <@p2pu-Jacky> If we could use badges instead of any of the very expensive and tyrannical PM certifying organizations (PMI, ITIL, Prince2, Scrum, etc), that would be outstanding.
[20:13] <@p2pu-Jacky> I am sure they will contribute. One fellow in Kuala Lumpur posts on Facebook several times/day in both English and Malaysian.
[20:13] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Cool. As a Prince2 practitioner, I get you. ;-)
[20:14] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> It strikes me that when I'm talking to people, it's not the concept of *badges* that they don't get, it's the *structure* of them.
[20:14] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Like, for example, badges forming some kind of 'meta-badge'?
[20:14] <@p2pu-Jacky> I do not think that a 4-hour closed book multiple choice exam (PMI) or a $1500 week in a workshop (Scrum) proves that someone can manage a project. What method does Prince2 use?
[20:15] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> The latter :-/
[20:16] <@p2pu-Jacky> Hmmm.. I am hoping that the ueber-badge is a certificate or degree from a traditional college.. 'meta' will not fly because badges have metadata associated with them.
[20:16] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Can these badges be applied to a primary school context, used with younger learners?
[20:16] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Ah yes, of course
[20:17] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I don't particularly see the need for a uber-badge because, as you say, that would be traditional qualifications, etc.
[20:17] <@p2pu-Jacky> Badges for pre-literate people (3-6 years old) is a challenge.
[20:18] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Really?
[20:18] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> They get badges *all* the time (I've got a four year-old)
[20:18] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> But I suppose you mean in terms of working towards stuff?
[20:19] <@p2pu-Jacky> I just mean how do they know how to read the criteria etc. If someone else does it for them, have they really earned the badge?
[20:19] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Right, gotcha
[20:19] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Two solutions there:
[20:20] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 1. Someone explains criteria lots of times (so it becomes engrained)
[20:20] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 2. They come up with own criteria
[20:20] <@p2pu-Jacky> Yes, those are good...Also I have seen near-babies with an iPad; they can really drive it.
[20:21] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Coming up withe their own criteria is an important part of my interpretation of using badges in my school
[20:21] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Yes, I think the peer-awarding part is *extremely* important. And the logical extension of that is for the peers to do the criteria-making. :-)
[20:22] <@p2pu-Jacky> So how about putting the use cases into categories: Pre-literate, early grades, middle grades, high school (Gymnasium in German), higher ed, life-long learners?
[20:22] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Before or after people do them? (i.e. are the categories imposed or emergent?)
[20:23] <@p2pu-Jacky> Perhaps suggested categories and a way to add new ones. Maybe hash tags.
[20:24] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Perhaps (if we get enough) the discussion about the organisation of them could be a Week 4 thing? :-)
[20:24] <@p2pu-Jacky> Suggesting categories helps generate ideas --
[20:24] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> True
[20:24] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> And I'm not arguing, but it can also make people think institutionally
[20:25] <p2pu-kvnmcl> The organisation is important as coming from a Primary school, my immediate thought on badges was that they were focused on +16
[20:25] <@p2pu-Jacky> I have just found that many people freeze up if they have a blank sheet of paper -- or a blank editing screen.
[20:26] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> You're right there, but the scaffolding is there (I think?) through the existing Learner Stories.
[20:26] <@p2pu-Jacky> I noticed in my f2f classes that everyone sits there reading or staring straight ahead. As soon as I tell them to introduce themselves, the chatter begins and it's hard to stop it.
[20:27] <@p2pu-Jacky> To each other, I mean, not to the whole class....
[20:27] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, so perhaps we could direct people towards one of the Learner Stories depending on their background?
[20:28] <@p2pu-Jacky> A great question to get people thinking is "If you knew you could not fail, what would you choose to learn?" ... or "What would you choose to have your children/neighbors/colleagues learn?"
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Indeed, or "what would you learn if you could get recognition for it?"
[20:29] <@p2pu-Jacky> We get lots of skill-based answers: playing musical instruments, sculpture, diving, motor-car racing...
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> (which is sometimes a pragmatic and unspoken question)
[20:29] <@p2pu-Jacky> Yes, recognition is good... Maybe that is why they choose skills -- mastery is more evident than with knowledge...
[20:30] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Indeed
[20:30] <@p2pu-Jacky> Especially if the recognition is in the form of a job, a promotion, a raise in salary, etc.
[20:31] <@p2pu-Jacky> Or press coverage..
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So, in terms of this semester of learning, perhaps we use Week 2 to thrash out how we're going to approach Week 3 (Learner Stories)
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> ...and then we use Week 4 to discuss which ones go together and who needs to talk to each other (cross-pollinate)>
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> ?
[20:32] <@p2pu-Jacky> There are only 3 of us here and Week 2 is called Negotiated Focus and Structure. I think we need to find out if the others have something else in mind.
[20:32] <@p2pu-Jacky> We can suggest use cases but leave room for other suggestions
[20:32] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Oh, absolutely.
[20:32] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I think we should use the discussion area under Week Two. :-)
[20:32] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Good ideas Doug but as Jacky points out perhaps check with others too. I'm keen on writing a learner story though
[20:33] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Week 2 is for negotiating more than just Week 3, so plenty of room for weeks for other stuff!
[20:33] <@p2pu-Jacky> We can have 2 or 3 foci -- but last week we had more than a dozen
[20:33] <@p2pu-Jacky> It is time to narrow it down.
[20:34] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> :-)
[20:34] <@p2pu-Jacky> Do we call them 'learner stories' or 'use cases'? The latter seems pretty techy...
[20:34] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Learner stories sounds more educator-friendly and fits in with the Mozilla wiki?
[20:34] <@p2pu-Jacky> For 'learner stories', we need to add a word to indicate that they are in the future, not fait accompli
[20:34] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Please call them Learner Stories ;-)
[20:35] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Agreed
[20:35] <@p2pu-Jacky> Projected Learner Stories?
[20:36] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Perhaps, because we need the Week 2 discussion are to serve as a place for debate about the future of the semester of learning *and* Learner Stories, we could have a Google Doc for the latter?
[20:36] <@p2pu-Jacky> We created a fictitious movie about an instructor who had adopted an open textbook; we got a lot of flack because people thought it was supposed to be true.
[20:36] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Ah, as long as it's flagged up I'm sure it would be fine
[20:39] <@p2pu-Jacky> Another thought for structure -- how about a virtual skit in which people take on various roles: learner, coach, evaluator, prospective employer?
[20:39] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Go on...
[20:40] <@p2pu-Jacky> My guess is that the learner stories would take on maybe 2 or 3 viewpoints and miss others -- e.g. I just missed parents in that list.
[20:40] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Good one.
[20:40] <@p2pu-Jacky> We identified a total of 18 stakeholders in open textbooks.
[20:41] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Well, that might be going a *little* too far in this context... ;-)
[20:41] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> But it's a great point about thinking about how it could impact and affect those other stakeholders
[20:41] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> (as an educator I bristle at the word 'stakeholders')
[20:41] <@p2pu-Jacky> impactees?
[20:42] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Oh, no, it's fine. Them's the words!
[20:42] <@p2pu-Jacky> if we do a skit, the word 'role' has a double meaning -- role in the education world and role in the acting world. I think this would be fun.
[20:43] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So I think we should certainly ask that people think about how the Learner Story they come up with affects stakeholders such as parents, teachers and potential employers.
[20:43] <@p2pu-Jacky> In one workshop, people took on the roles of the various Creative Commons attributes... BY, NC, ND, and SA
[20:43] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Wow.
[20:44] <p2pu-kvnmcl> That sounds cool!
[20:44] <@p2pu-Jacky> I think it's good to do that in text etc. I think it would be even better to do it 'live' -- at least in a chat, perhaps on Skype  or on a discussion thread where there can be some artwork or something lively
[20:45] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, but we need a provocation piece
[20:45] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I reckon Kevin would be up for writing something fairly shortly given his current thinking?
[20:46] <p2pu-kvnmcl> I'm certainly up for it :-)
[20:46] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Excellent
[20:46] <@p2pu-Jacky> We could start with one of the current Learner Stories in Mozilla and assign various roles -- or we could start with Kevin's.
[20:47] <p2pu-kvnmcl> I'll start writing my story tomorrow and post it to you see if it can fit in with what you are considering
[20:47] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Or both - "Here's one of the 'official' Mozilla ones, and here's Kevin's"
[20:47] <p2pu-kvnmcl> I like that Doug
[20:47] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I don't think we need to be too heavy on the categorisation at first. It's important, but more important is to get people involved!
[20:47] <@p2pu-Jacky> I will check with the man in Malaysia  - maybe he could write about badges for project managers in southeast Asia.
[20:48] <p2pu-kvnmcl> +1 That Doug
[20:48] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Yep, the more diverse the better
[20:48] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So in terms of 'instructions' we're giving, what are we thinking?
[20:50] <@p2pu-Jacky> Probably just announce that we had this discussion and solicit learner stories. As you said, have people put these on their own blogs and point to them. If they do not have a blog, they could create a google doc.
[20:50] <@p2pu-Jacky> We can do the skit part later
[20:50] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Yep, although probably (given UK context) best not to call it a 'skit'. Different connotation.
[20:51] <@p2pu-Jacky> Ooops.. separated by a common language.
[20:51] <@p2pu-Jacky> How about 'radio play'?
[20:51] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hmmm
[20:51] <@p2pu-Jacky> Or just role play...
[20:51] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Yep :-)
[20:52] <p2pu-kvnmcl> I might just stick to the writing part :-D
[20:52] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> We'll see how it goes - when this stops being fun we all stop doing it, right?
[20:53] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Absolutely
[20:53] <@p2pu-Jacky> Maybe we could do the role play next Saturday for part of this session...Actually it's good if you only write the story Kevin (assuming we use yours); the actors will bring the creativity and insights.
[20:53] <p2pu-kvnmcl> That's my mantra in school too
[20:53] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> :-)
[20:54] <@p2pu-Jacky> I am finding this fun but I gotta go. Our final report to our funder is due at midnight.. They already gave us a month's grace from July 20.
[20:54] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, so in terms of doing stuff
[20:54] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK Jacky - talk next week hopefully :-)
[20:54] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Kevin, if you write that thing
[20:54] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'll put a message in the group with a transcript of this
[20:54] <p2pu-kvnmcl> doing stuff? I'm writing a learner story tomorrow, you two are acting it out next week :-)
[20:55] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> That's what I mean!
[20:55] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> And then we just see who wants to follow your lead. :-)
[20:55] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Okay
[20:55] <@p2pu-Jacky> I will play director and get others to act.
[20:55] <@p2pu-Jacky> I think this will encourage attendance.
[20:55] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Cool
[20:55] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Laters!
[20:56] <p2pu-kvnmcl> See you next week
[20:56] <@p2pu-Jacky> bye
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[20:57] <p2pu-kvnmcl> Bye Doug
[20:57] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Bye
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